I’m grateful for the opportunity to share this journey with my friends down under! Click the image below to watch the video on the Sunrise website. Pretty surface level explanation, but that’s all that’s ever possible in these sort format interviews.
My Sunrise interview in Australia
18 Saturday Jan 2014
Posted in Uncategorized
Year Without God 
Thanks for sharing your interview. I’m an atheist physician at Harvard Medical School. I’ve just seen too much suffering and pain over my career to accept that there is any divine process at work; I started having my doubts when I saw children die on a leukemia unit while in medical school. I wish you well on your journey.
I don’t know how you manage to do it. I couldn’t imagine being in the public eye that first year…or the second or the third of my atheist search. My mind was overwhelmed with questions, and to then be bombarded by the media with more questions, judgement, etc. I hope you are holding up okay. I hope you have a support group of family and friends available to help you on your journey. For many of us, it was a very lonely and isolated journey, so it is difficult for me to imagine it so open and visual for everyone to see and comment. Even after all these years, I find that I am still constantly asking questions. Lately they have been focused on morality–what it is? Can one be moral without god? Is religion a good guide for morality? I hope you are finding time to ask your own questions and searching and not becoming overwhelmed by the questions of others. I wish I could give you extra strength, but all I can offer is words of encouragement and support. What I can tell you is that what you are doing is truly worth it and you will be so grateful for having made the journey, asked the questions, and searched for answers (not just limiting your search to one/”the” book). And I REALLY appreciate the sacrifice you are making in being public about it. You are doing something that is worthy of praise and support and I hope that by being open and in the public eye you will bring light on something of great importance that we all should be doing no matter what you decide in the end. You can feel proud that have made that journey, asked questions, and hopefully met some amazing people along the way.
Jaynee, if you have time, you can take this free course..
https://www.coursera.org/course/moralities
Frank, if I could I would hug you! Just reading over the course info gave me chills. I can’t wait to take the course! Thank you!
Jaynee your welcome….
How about giving a written commentary about the interview?. There are still some of us out here without high speed internet connections and watching videos is simply not possible! It doesn’t have to be a word for word transcription but the basics of what questions you were asked and what you said.
Very nice, level-headed, interview, in which you were clear. One point I would add is the possible difficulty when you use the word “materialistic” in the media. The general public will take that as meaning “wealth seeking” which is a problem if you meant the philosophical position of taking the world as lacking a supernatural aspect. This is another vocabulary thing where speaking to the public warrants some caution. I don’t use “materialism” anymore, but rather, use “naturalism” if talking to the public or “physicalism” if the audience is familiar with the more technical philosophy,
Hard core materialist … hmmm. I think most Christians were forced to give up the man-in-the-clouds god for a “spiritual” god when Galileo gave us the telescope. So, materialism vs spiritualism has been at the heart of the atheist/theist debate since then. We know from medical science that mind is the product of the physical brain. Thoughts don’t float around in space and then pop into our heads. If the brain is damaged or deteriorates with disease, the thinking process is changed. After death, when the brain ceases to function, there is no more thinking. How would you propose that someone could “think” they’ve died and gone to heaven? Remember, there is no physical part of the human anatomy called the “soul”. Soul, or personality, is a part of the mind. How could a “spiritual” being exist? How could there be a bunch of thoughts floating around somewhere, everywhere, and nowhere in particular without a physical brain to produce them?
How would I propose someone could think they had died and gone to Heaven? By being mistaken about the “died” part, and having a pleasant hallucination instead of an unpleasant one while their brain was suffering whatever injury or illness almost killed them.
Cora, if you’re still around, physiologists have replicated “Near Death Experiences” in the lab. A drug that replicates the typical sensations is Ecstasy – anything that restricts oxygen supply to the brain works just as well. And what other researchers have found is that, when a person has a NDE, they describe it in the standard terms used within their culture. Hindu NDEs, for example, are markedly different than Western NDEs. If people have been told, from the time they were small, small children, that they go to “heaven” when they die, and they’ve seen all sorts of artwork depicting “heaven” and colored “heavenly” pages in Sunday School etc. etc., then, when there is brain trauma, the person could, indeed, *THINK* of “heavenly” imagery. The individual was certainly primed to do so – such images permeate our culture and we don’t even notice how often they appear (movies, advertisements, etc.).
“Soul” – ugh. It’s just another of those rather meaningless words people use to make themselves sound superior to other animals. Some people seem to use “soul” and “personality” interchangeably, but personality is clearly an effect of the brain – it is clearly impacted, sometimes severely, by certain kinds of brain injury. “Soul” is supposed to be some essential static quality, but to this point, we have no evidence such a thing exists. There is no aspect of a person’s character or persona that has been shown to be a fundamental, abiding and changeless quality – dementia and Alzheimer’s should have taken care of that kind of thinking by now.
“I think most Christians were forced to give up the man-in-the-clouds god for a “spiritual” god when Galileo gave us the telescope. ”
Especially when we began routinely flying above the clouds in airplanes and could see for ourselves that there weren’t any “gods” there. It wasn’t so long ago that “heaven” was “up” and “hell” was “down”, within the bowels of the earth (with the magma and hot water and brimstone pools and earthquakes and all that other scary stuff). But theists are pretty quick studies – as soon as they realize they can’t claim something any more because we all know it isn’t so, they just change the details slightly to return whatever it was to “unknown” status. Hooray for knowledge and learning O_O
“How could a “spiritual” being exist? How could there be a bunch of thoughts floating around somewhere, everywhere, and nowhere in particular without a physical brain to produce them?”
Indeed. A serious problem for those who posit a completely undetectable super-being that nonetheless appears to have mostly human personality characteristics…
And Cat? About 10% or so of NDE rememberers recount terrifying visions of suffering and horror 🙂 And, for all NDE fans out there, not everyone who experiences NDEs describes them identically, and some who have had them have not been particularly moved or affected by the experience. Just the ones who want to sell lots of books to gullible Christians!!
As an Australian Adventist, I have to admit I was chuckling during this interview because of the completely non-SDA style stock footage they showed alongside your image!
But seriously – I’m following your blog with interest. I grew up in the church but at age 18 stopped attending and stopped making an effort in any personal relationship with God, although I never stopped believing that God existed. A large part of this was to do with issues I was having with the church as an institution (one major issue being the official stance re: LGBT individuals, as a straight ally) and my inability to separate my individual spiritual life from the institution. For about 5 years I only attended church when I was home visiting my parents – and then I went to their church, not to the one I’d been attending as a teen, so I could avoid awkward questions… Anyway. Eventually I had to admit that I missed God being a part of my life – I definitely felt that it would be better with him in it than not. An Anglican friend was a big part of this process and he encouraged me to start going back to church – ANY church. It was at that point that I had to really think about what I wanted out of a church congregation. I certainly felt that I needed the fellowship of a church to support my individual relationship with God. It felt very odd to consider going to church on Sunday, but was that just because “old habits die hard”? In the end, I couldn’t go past the interpretation of Sabbath as Saturday that I’d studied as a teen, and I decided that even though I disagreed with other things within the institution, I felt I would have more in common with an Adventist congregation than with a Sunday church, because the 4th commandment mattered to me. So I’ve been a regular member of an SDA church again for the last 6 years. Sure, my relationship with God still has its ups and downs, but I have appreciated being able to study the Bible with others and encourage each other. I’ve also been trying to make a difference at the grass roots level about issues that matter to me, such as challenging others about their opinions towards the LGBT community. So even though my personal theology may not be completely aligned with the institution, I’ve found a community where there are like-minded people, and acceptance for someone who may not fit the traditional model of an SDA young woman.
All that being said — I appreciated what you said in this interview about the separation of your personal spirituality and the institution or religion to which you belong/participate in. It made me think of my own story and so I thought I’d share that briefly with you.
One final thought. A major step forward for me in the last few years has been coming to a better understanding of God’s character, especially through studying Revelation with the help of my husband, who is a far better Bible scholar than I! The BIG questions such as “why do bad things happen” and “what is hell” have been explored and left me feeling quite certain that I reject the God that so many athiests think Christians believe in… So while I still don’t think the SDA church as an institution has the whole truth, I do think they have a few good things going on, one of which is the great controversy perspective.
I’m rambling now, so I’m going to stop. Good luck with your journey. I think it’s well worth exploring everything the way you are doing.
This was probably not meant for me but I’m glad that I read it. Your openness, honesty, unpretentiousness, transparency, are what appeal to me the most. There’s a lot I can learn from that. Often, I think that when it’s all said and done, we’re all pilgrims together on this complicated road of life, trying to make sense of the mysterious. Who among us has immunity from the “ups and downs” as you say?! It behooves all of us :. to be mindful of the struggles of each one of us.
Specifically re Bell’s proposal though, which I heard about for the first time on the radio one week ago, I can’t get much past the implication(s) of a Gospel story in the 12th chapter of the New Testament book of Luke, vss. 16-20 or 21.
Hello Michelle,
I agree with Carrox…we’re all pilgrims! I specifically empathise with your comment about ‘the God that so many atheists think Christians believe in’. Like you I don’t believe that God is what we are told he is, he is above and beyond what we can comprehend and we try to make him human and bring him down to our level. We, try to understand him, predict what he will do (or won’t) and ultimately we don’t give him the freedom to be what he is. I believe that’s where so many of the problems come from…we pigeon hole God!
sounds like you just pigeon-holed God!
“especially through studying Revelation with the help of my husband, who is a far better Bible scholar than I! ”
I’m assuming that ^ is completely independent of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, right?
“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”
That was a really clear interview. I could never have done what you’re doing, it’s really brave and it’s so great to be having this discussion in the open – helping to break down the taboo around discussing religious belief. You are giving me courage to be more open about my atheism with my adventist family and friends. I was surprised that the presenters would think The Friendly Atheist’s response was unlikely – were they really thinking that humans need an external force instructing them in order to do good things?
Oh, Ryan. I like the interview. But I’m curious about your (quite logical) answer that many people contributed to Mehta’s crowdfunding were on the spectrum from atheist to Christian. But I’m curious … do you know if any non-Christian believers contributed? (I don’t know if that information is available to you.)
It might be a good assumption that Hemant Mehta contributed to his crowdfunding proposal, and he is certainly a non-Christian believer.
I’m pretty sure Mehta’s an atheist, not a believer.
Yeah, safe bet to say Hemant Mehta is a non-believer. Just out of curiosity, what would lead you to think he is “certainly a non-christian believer”? I hope you are not just going off of his name.
I would bte a larger number of athiest’s contributed to this vs. Christians. Christians have much more to lose with this.
I am sure that given the volume of donations he received, those with all nature of beliefs contributed, including those of non-christian religions. But I am sure the overwhelming amount of contributions came from atheists since, as is mentioned above, christians really have very little to gain here.
I strongly considered contributing to help Ryan out, but I thought better of it. Don’t get me wrong, I always want to help out someone who is in trouble. But I can think of so many other people out there who are struggling much more so and are doing so through no fault of their own. The victims of the recent disaster in the Philippines comes to mind. I don’t know the details of Ryan’s preparation and planning, but I certainly would hope he would have thought ahead of time of the financial implications of possibly losing his job because of this project.
That having been said, I hope Ryan is using the money from the donations he has received to good purpose. And if he is able to get his head above water through advertising on his site or a book deal or whatever, I hope he considers giving all these donations to a more needy cause. There are many many out there.
Paying his bills and providing for his family are the best causes out there. I think putting money aside for his children’s future college educations is the second best cause out there. Once his children are out of college and into their careers and his and his wife’s retirements are funded, THEN he can think about giving whatever’s left of all these donations to a more needy cause.
Blanche, how bout you send me a few thousand dollars to pay my bills and send my kids to school so i can do interviews and read books all day
That’s what I was going to say, Jay, but you beat me to it. There are many, many, many (keep repeating that) people out there unable to pay their bills or provide for their children’s education who did not lose their jobs simply because they wanted to pursue a spiritual journey. There are countless numbers of people, such as those in the Philippines, who have lost it all, including many of their loved ones, simply through (pardon the figure of speech) an act of god. My point was if you have money to donate to others, focus on those who are unable to help themselves.
That having been said, I still encourage Ryan and his pursuit of understanding life without gods, because I hope it will lead to others realizing they can do the same. I just really would have to draw the line at financial compensation.
Guys, if you want to get yourselves some crowdfunding, get busy and figure out how to do it for yourselves!
You just come off all bitter and jealous that enough people want to help Ryan that he’s managed to parlay this rather risky gambit into a new kind of job (for him). Why should it bother YOU if people want to “subscribe”, so to speak? People pay for what they value, and that often includes text-sources such as books and magazines. This is no different.
And no, Jay, I don’t give money to losers. Why would I want to give money to YOU???
one of my work colleagues sent me a text message that this was coming on, I had to rush to a tv but made it in time. in terms of one of the comments above, my first year out of belief was pretty much private ( and lonely ). I am coming up to five years free from religion later this year, has taken a while but I am now very happy about this. good interview, I like the gentle manner Ryan uses, doesn’t seem to get the beleiver’s backs up from what I have seen the far.
the only thing I “miss” about SDA is the food recipes
…coming from a 60 yr old “never was” SDA PK. The potlucks back in the 60’s were pretty good tasting. Something to look forward to after the boring sermons. Here here Special K/cottage cheese loaf! ggg wink wink.
Ryan,
Good interview. I particularly liked where you pointed out how some strident atheists suspect you of just playing along to garner a future book deal. Pay them no mind as they’re just coming across as jealous. Frankly a book would seem the logical conclusion to this year-long journey but I suspect not one that Christian publishers would touch with a ten foot pole.
It’s probably already been mentioned but the parallel between the journey you’re on and the one taken by Matt Dillahunty is glaring. I’m certain the Atheist Community of Austin would welcome your participation on their public access TV show The Atheist Experience as a guest or even just as a caller.
Yes, so true re Matt Dillahunty!
uh…if we’re going to be honest here, we should note that Ryan has been accused of hitting up marks for a money-making venture here on this very site by CHRISTIANS!
So let’s not give the impression it’s only those awful, unpleasant ATHEISTS who suspect ulterior motives from our fresh-faced boy Ryan.
What was Matt Dillahunty’s “journey”?
You appeared very confident and prepared, congrats on that. However, I see a pattern with these blogs…digging deep into the psychology of mankind as if it is somehow different or superior in the modern societies compared to ancient or older societies. What IS different is the fear of a spiritual realm within our ultra modern society here in America. As a result we have decided it is nonsense and simply doesn’t exist. It’s almost embarrassing since the documented history of mankind is packed full of spirituality, both good and bad. Just because we can’t fully wrap our minds around the happenings within our enormous Universe or begin to understand the abilities within other dimensions other than a VERY limited three dimensions, does not mean that they don’t exist. It appears that out of a need to understand and/ or control our existence, wisdom is being replaced and confused with “intelligence”. To me, this is more disheartening than judging a persons sexuality or whether one choses to attend a physical church or not.
Connie
Just one problem with your argument. The moment to begin to believe in the existence of anything is when evidence presents itself, not before. Just because we can imagine something doesn’t mean we can pretend they are real. Speculation runs the gamut whether it be gods or multi-verses but speculation it must remain until it can be verified.
There’s no end to statements about our apparent deficiencies. Our minds are imperfect so we cannot grasp the perfect mind, we are physical beings in a physical universe so we cannot comprehend the meta-physical or transcendent…etc. We can recognize our limitations but it doesn’t follow that unlimited examples exist simply because we can envision them. Why must there be perfect minds? As far as we can tell humans are unique. Oh there might be alien races of higher intelligence out there somewhere but until we make contact we can’t know. And even that is infinitely more plausible than a god. Why must there be something that lives forever when every example of life that we know of dies?
When you speak of the wisdom of ages ago what exactly are you referring to? Their fanciful musings about creation and the dictates they believed were handed down by the gods? Or should we simply recognize their genius in philosophy, ethics and humanism even if it was couched in religious terms?
I agree, Steve, but people who believe in spirits will assert that they do have evidence — for instance that they felt something or saw something that they interpret as spiritual, or that they prayed for something and their prayer was answered. They forget all the times they prayed in vain.
There is one lady (about 5 miles from my place) who isn’t afraid of the spiritual realm. She bravely decided to fight it. She is now all over the news.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/mother-charged-with-murder-in-killings-of-two-toddlers/2014/01/18/8dfe3bc4-804a-11e3-95c6-0a7aa80874bc_story.html
I clicked on the link you provided, andsib, and read the aticle about the church-going mentally ill mother who killed her two younger children and severely wounded her two older ones in an attempt at exorcism. You can’t blame mental illness on her religion, however, it’s clear that her belief in God and her association with the church did nothing to help her either.
Sure thing. I was just wandering if not believing in devils and anything “spiritual” would help…
I too followed the link and from what the article says you can’t tell anything about her religion, what she believes or doesn’t believe–other than she thought her children were posessed. That has happened to people who think the posession is from space aliens or from a government conspiracy planting things in their heads. So no one can make any judgments from that article about where she picked up her ideas, from her preacher, from her parents, from the other woman that was with her, from the internet? People will use and misuse anything if it suits their purpose. Religions are just as susceptible to abuse as political affiliation!
Also, with regard to “the fear of a spiritual realm” it would be helpful to point out that in out ultramodern society we are not afraid of “child witches” anymore. What we’re afraid of is the “practitioners”. In not so ultramodern societies like Africa they still practice exorcism on little children resulting in death and serious injuries, and somehow I have serious doubts that they are all mentally ill. Also, looking into not so distant history of our own Western society reveals a very similar pattern.
“That has happened to people who think the posession is from space aliens or from a government conspiracy planting things in their heads.”
Really, Susan? I have not run across a single case where a mother killed or severely injured her children due to her belief that they were possessed by space aliens or that they were the, I don’t know, transmitter units for a government conspiracy or some such.
But I HAVE seen too many stories of Christian mothers who killed or severely injured their children due to their Christian beliefs – Andrea Yates and DeAnna Laney, to name two notorious ones.
I would *LOVE* it if you could link us all to some stories of mothers obsessed with space aliens or a goverment conspiracy murdering their children as mothers obsessed with Christianity do. Can you?
andrsib, there is a culture in Papua New Guinea, the Korowai, that practices cannibalism, only they don’t refer to it as such. If some tragedy befalls a family, they will decide who was responsible for it, and that person is thereby designated a “witch.” Which is something nonhuman. They will then kill and eat the “witch” the same as they would kill and eat a wild pig or a pigeon or whatever. The “witch” is often a child. These people live in the most unusual huts, atop extremely tall poles.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/sleeping-with-cannibals-128958913/
In the exorcism story I cited there were two women involved. Both are charged with murder. Are mental illnesses contagious?
Religion certainly is…
I think you make a good point about “wisdom” being replaced by “intelligence” or I would add “rationality and logic”. However I have run into many that don’t understand the concept of wisdom. Some think it merely comes with age. And they think people should pay heed to what they say simply because they are older than someone else! Some discredit Eastern Wisdom teachings in favor of Christian teachings simply displaying their cultural bias and in my opinion their lack of Wisdom. Some simply think that ridicule and demeaning comments about others are signs of their “insight or wisdom”! Some think that the number of degrees they hold is a sign of their Wisdom and that what they say should carry more weight than what an uneducated old Yaqui Indian might have to say. Here I am thinking about Carlos Castanedas books about Don Juan the Yaqui Indian sorcerer, a very wise man in my opinion. Some think that the Pope is a wise man, others think he has serious flaws with his character, saying one thing and doing something different. Do you think many of us could ever agree about who has it and who doesn’t?
I went to your church in Hollywood two times and liked it very much. I am a bit troubled by your journey though. Although I think it is fine to pursue religious beliefs and find ones own truth, I question making money on this experiement. I understand that someone else started a donation page in your honor, but now I see you have a donation lilnk on this blog. I fully undestand it being tough to lose three jobs with two kids to take care of, but what did you expect. You were a pastor and Christian teacher who wantted to “try out” athieism, do you think they were going to let you keep your job?? Why should we send you money? You should have contemplated the consequences this decision was going to place on you financially, especially having children to raise.
You say you are surprised this went public, but now it seems like you are enjoying the attention and now, the money it is bringing your way.
I have a question for you. Was there ever a time in your life when Jesus made himself real to you? If he never had, then you were never a true believer to begin with and if he had made Himself real, then why don’t you try to go back and remember that time.
JAB some people grow up. When I was a child I spoke and believed as a child, now that I am an adult I speak and understand as an adult. I can’t say why Ryan Bell changed only that people do change as their understanding of the world around them changes and there is no going back. We can only keep moving forward or stagnate and wither away, IF we try to stay in one place, when our hearts and minds tell us it is time to move on. Some will cling stubbornly to old ways simply because they don’t have the courage to admit that the old ways are no longer working for them and they are simply too afraid to learn about other ways.
I have no problem with Mr. Bell trying to find out what truth is for him. I just have a problem with making money on this and having a Pay Pal ling here for donations. Donations for what? For him to contemplate life?? That’s ridiculous.
JAB, you’ve been posting this same comment in every thread. You don’t need to do that–it’s just spamming.
Sorry. I just got really upset when I saw the Pay Pal Link here and wanted to vent. I will not spam.
JAB, agreed. Most people don’t realized this was intended from the start. He launched this on his very visible huffingtonpost blog, which he’d been writing for 2 years. If you look at his personal website he is clearly selling an image of himself. He probably didn’t expect this to go nearly as well as it has, though, but I see very little humility here, which in my opinion goes hand in hand with a quest for truth.
I agree Jay. This is a self absorbed money grab!!
Hello Ryan,
How are you doing at this time? Thank you so much for sharing this video with us. I have great appreciation for your use of the word “detox”. I thought it was interesting how the hosts made sure to throw in the comment that “you weren’t really saved to begin with!” I respond to such comments that “atheist” wasn’t even in my vocabulary the first 39 years of my life.
My parents outed me as an atheist to all six of my younger sisters and their families over Christmas. They all had a little reunion at my parents’ house the first Holiday season following my divorce from my parents. After decades of abuse, severe neglect and constant manipulation, I had cut them out of my life this past summer. I already told my most understanding sister about my deconversion on Thanksgiving Day. As much as I think it might have eased the blow, it still hurt. My dad thinks I just need a good old fashioned deliverance.
I wish you well on your journey. I will say this, please don’t feel as though you owe everyone a specific title for what you are this year. You’re simply working things out and trying to figure out what you do and do not believe. I think that’s commendable.
May you and your family do well in 2014.
CHope, what a sad story about your family situation. I hope you have loving, supportive people in your life that you can ‘choose’ to be your family.
I had to roll my eyes at the comment the interviewers read, something about “you must never have truly known God.” What an arrogant thing to say about another person’s spiritual journey!
My micro-biography – I grew up in an intensely Christian family, with multiple ministers and missionaries on all sides. I was a committed and pious Christian until my late 20’s. Then, one lovely Sunday morning, the scales fell from my eyes and I suddenly realized I couldn’t believe it – miracles, virgin birth, resurrection – any more. None of these things jibed with my understanding of the natural world. I then spent two decades trying to figure out what God was. I studied, I prayed and meditated, I talked with others, I begged God to show me the truth of what God is. Two decades of absolute silence on the other end. You know how the silence on a phone sounds different if the line is ‘live’ even if you are not connected, versus how a phone sounds if the line is cut? The phone line to God was cut.
So, last year, I finally gave up on god – at least, a theistic god as described in almost all religions. I am an a-theist (don’t believe in a theistic god). There may be an overpowering creative force in the universe that has led to existence as we know it, but that force in no way is thinking, planning, or cognitive in a way we would recognize as the god or gods in most religions.
So, is the comment correct – have I never truly known God? I guess the answer, for me anyway, must be “No – but damn it, not for a lack of trying.” I have tried to know God in every way I can imagine, every way the Christian churches teach. Either God does not exist, or God has chosen to ignore me.
I’ve never believed in predestination. But maybe that is the answer. I am simply predestined to not be saved. If that is the case, why bother trying?
Hello Kate,
It’s a very different kind of world on this side of faith, isn’t it?
As far as support is concerned, I have my husband. We live in a tiny town in west Tennessee. I realize that I may never have the kind of “family” that I need as long as I live here. However, I will not uproot my children from the amazing lives that they have. I very, very rarely tell anyone anywhere near here about being an atheist. I don’t know if you know much about where I live, the people here treat outsiders, Muslims and Jews horribly. I’m already not well received being a retired military man’s wife with a “Yankee” accent. I don’t even want to think about how they’d treat my little boys if word got out about our unbelief.
I know, you tried, you tried hard. I hear it when I read your comment. It’s a hard road to travel, choosing to walk away from all the tears, tithes, offerings, prayers, friends and acquaintances that have been apart of who you are for many years. Deconversion often affects our marriages, parents, children, jobs and career choices, as well as our education. It’s more than just walking away from the past, it’s leaving the future that we had put so much into. It’s also saying goodbye to that dreamy state that we had hoped in for eternity.
I wish you the very best. Have a fantastic New Year.
CHope,
I grew up in northwest Arkansas, so I know EXACTLY what you mean about your town!
The hardest thing to give up was the hope of seeing my mother in an afterlife. She died several years ago, and I miss her dreadfully. But it’s also lovely to know that this life is what we get, and that we should enjoy it in all its beauty.
Wishing you the best, too!
Great interview. Thank you for sharing.
I’m sure you’ve gotten your fair share of conversion-to-atheism stories, so I won’t bore you with mine. But I will say that the first year of atheism was very hard for me. For a long while I didn’t “want” to be an atheist, I actually wanted to go back. But my brain couldn’t believe what my heart wanted to, so I marched forward into the darkness.
The hardest part, in my opinion, about going from being devoutly religious to being atheist is that atheism is not a substitute for religion — it’s not like converting to Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism, it’s a fundamentally different thing. The old joke is that atheism is to religion like bald is to hair color.
That’s not a bad thing, but it’s important to recognize that it’s different. For a lot of people, the conversion to atheism is a very lonely process. A devout person’s belief in god is a wellspring of comfort — the idea that *someone* in is control of this mess. And if not the belief itself, then certainly the community can provide a measure of support. In many cases, the transition to atheism will (temporarily) demolish that support structure, and it’s really quite a difficult process. A lot of atheists, myself included, develop a real anger toward the people who had been lying to us since we were kids. A few of my friends remain in this angry state.
But eventually I found a balance that works for me. I don’t believe god exists, but neither do I shy away from using religious words to describe my experiences when it seems reasonable. For example, when my fiance said “Yes,” every fiber of my being rejoiced and my soul sang to the heavens. I feel comfortable saying that, even though I don’t believe in a literal soul or a literal heaven, because it seems to me to be the most effective way to communicate certain experiences to other people.
And frankly, without a god, all we have is making this world better with other people.
Good luck on your journey.
~Michael
There are some emotional upsides to being an atheist though, besides sleeping in on Sunday, like not having to worry about why God allows people to suffer.
Yes, I found it a great relief to finally stop the tortured intellectual twisting I had to do to maintain faith in a loving, involved god, while also considering the problem of evil and the hiddenness of god.
At first, some theistic rationalizations worked, but the more I thought, the less sense they made. I would listen to some prestigious theologian attempt to address these issues and think, “Really? That works for you?”
I don’t miss trying to believe at all. What a waste of intellectual energy!
Okay, Ryan. I read your blog entries and watched your Sunrise interview. Early on, you wrote: “My desire is, as always, to pursue the truth….”
I think it might be useful to you to walk upstream a bit and articulate an answer to this question.
“Why pursue the truth?”
By the way, American Atheists are holding their 2014 national convention in Salt Lake City April 17-20. Are you coming?
I’m sure, as long as the media shows up. Maybe he can even sell tickets.
One man asked why pursue truth? I ask “Why NOT pursue the truth?” I am a bit concerned these days about the rise in “Nones”, young people that reply ‘none’ on public opinion polls when asked about their religious affiliation. Pew research has a new poll that illustrates this trend. I wonder if they are making an informed conscientious decision or IF they have simply been turned off and have tuned out? They are as disgusted by religious folks as they are by atheists and just can’t be bothered. I started getting concerned a few years ago with the rise in social media. Young people are “connected” with their friends all of the time but so much seems to be superficial, little face to face discussion and physical contact. In schools where teacher performance is determined by test results there is no time to allow kids to ask yet alone learn how to formulate questions. There is no time to encourage the development of deep thinking, logic and reasoning skills. There is no time to be distracted by curiosity. Are we getting a generation of young folk that know so little about religions that they won’t be able to understand world history? Will they then be a great target for the next Jim Jones or sweet talking charlatan or gang leader that comes along? Will they have no understanding of ethics and morality? Where will the great inventions and scientific breakthroughs come from if we have a generation of young people that don’t know how to work together or ask questions and search for and figure out right answers? If you don’t know what you are for (as in what moves you, what principles you honor and uphold) what are you here for? I think searching for “TRUTH” whether about Science or History or how people and social systems work and about religious ideas is part of figuring all of this out, it is part of growing and becoming the best that we can be, it is part of being human, humans are curious creatures.
As an atheist I have no religious affiliation, I would answer ‘none’. Still, I am not opposed to deep thinking. I do have an understanding of ethics and morality. Why should all this be tied to a religious affiliation?
It shouldn’t. BUT people need to understand the concepts, they need to have some moral and ethical values of some kind. For example: Bullying has become a major problem in many schools, even in grade schools, across our country. Your attitude towards bullying, whether you do it or are opposed to it, is part of your moral/ethical makeup. Some of the worst instances, at least the instances that make the public press are religious students bullying homosexuals or non-religious students. YET it is something that isn’t discussed in homes, in churches, or in schools. It isn’t discussed in schools because the religious folk object IF morals/ethics are taught that are NOT connected to God. Non-religious folk object IF morals/ethics are taught that are connected to God. Consequently nothing is taught. We can see rich folk with no or little regard for moral/ethical behavior, some caused the financial crises that nearly destroyed our capitalistic system. We can see poor folk that work the system and that leads to Republicans wanting to pull the rug out from under everyone. We all know the “jokes” about “used car salesmen” that will sell you a lemon if they can get away with it. Moral and ethical behavior concerns all of us. Medical and Legal schools have started requiring classes on morals/ethics for their students. YET who is going to teach this next generation of young people about it?
Susan — I bet there is great variety among the nones, just as there is among different types of religious believers. The “none” category includes self-identified atheists, agnostics, the “spiritual but not religious” (SBNR), as well as people who were formerly or never religious and people of all ages (though a higher percentage are young) .
They are a fluid and growing group and as time goes on there will be more information about them.
Sara you ignored the point of my question. I pointed out the numbers are growing in my post. I also made no attempt or implication that they are not a diverse group. BUT the important point is are they making informed conscientious decisions OR are they just tuning out? Are they as turned off by Atheism as they are by religion? Are they checking “none” because they think it is cool? We all know teens and young people do lots of things simply because they think it is cool, or “in” without giving much thought to what they are doing. I then gave examples of why it matters, why we need to understand why they are choosing the “none” box! If you aren’t for something (only nothing) then what are you here for?
Susan — I think the questions you raise will be addressed in time as the nones are studied – and that the answers will vary according to the types of “nones” asked.
Interestingly, I did not see in Ross’s submission the implication that pursuing truth is a useless endeavor. As a matter of fact, far from it! on the contrary, I noted his phraseology with particular interest and intrigue, “… walk upstream a bit …” thinking that his is probably among the most provocative and penetrating questions posed in the forum to date. Of course, I cannot pretend to know what his particular argument is, or even where it might lead, but in my own very small opinion, a serious and thoughtful answer to that one, fundamental question will go a long way in illuminating the path forward.
Carrox
That’s a good point. Personally I think it’s important to care about truth because our beliefs matter. I strive to hold as many true beliefs and as few false beliefs as possible. If something I thought was true turns out to be false then I learn where I was mistaken and change my belief. Our beliefs inform our actions. I want to minimize taking actions based on beliefs that are not true.
I very much agree with what Steve just wrote. Truth builds on truth. If you have a network of beliefs that contains falsehoods, the whole thing can come tumbling down. Sometimes mythologies are just-so stories behind a collections of good rules of thumb built up over generations of life experiences that can be very helpful to people’s lives. However, when conditions change and rules of thumb don’t work anymore, being able to drop what is false and to go search for the truth, is what moves civilization forward. That is hard to do if people hold on to the stories, as if actually true.
Thanks, Carrox. For catching my drift.
“I think it might be useful to you to walk upstream a bit and articulate an answer to this question.
“Why pursue the truth?””
I, too, like this statement/question, but perhaps for a different reason. So much of what we regard as “given” about ourselves and reality is what authority figures piped into our immature minds while we were young (under 10, especially under 6 or 7), too young to think critically about the content and not developed intellectually enough to even question authority figures. For those whose religious parents indoctrinated them into god-belief, this represents *something* that was introduced upstream of where the individual is now (downstream). There’s something in the water already – is it a barrel of oil leaking, a dead cow (as in “Cold Mountain”), or something else? Because of its presence, the water downstream is quite different from the pure water upstream. Downstream has extra *stuff* in it.
So walking upstream to before that [fill in the blank] was added will enable you to see what the pristine stream looked like, theoretically. In real life, this is extremely difficult for most people to do. For me, the barrel of poison was “magical thinking”, the idea that, without supernatural assistance, I could not make it in life. I could not even SURVIVE! So, even though I didn’t believe in gods, I glommed onto a “magic chant” pseudo-Buddhism. Still, the time I spent in meditation WAS helpful and enabled me to uncover a lot of the ick that was gunking up the upstream works. Finally, it was an argument online that brought me face to face with my own irrationality, and in that moment, it was over – no more magical thinking for me. Once you see it, it loses its power over you, you see. And how wonderful a life without that burden, that taint, that toxic corruption, is!
That said, our idea of “truth” is typically informed during this early indoctrination-facile phase. So it behooves us to first define “truth” and then think about what it is we expect it to do for us. Because I guarantee you, if there’s a word with deep emotional connotations that is being used in irrational ways, people are expecting to get far more mileage out of that word than simply place holder in a sentence. “Jesus is truth”, for example. Complete and utter twaddle – meaningless, but boy, do the Christians get all excited when they say it!
For me, “truth” can only be claimed as such if it can be independently validated against facts. There – succinct and parsimonious. No need to play fast and loose with words such that they lose all meaning.
For those that are curious I looked up the Pew research report “Nones on the Rise” from October 9, 2012. You can find it at http://www.pewforum.org/2012/10/09/nones-on-the-rise The statistics are startling. First the rise in those claiming Atheistic or Agnostic has risen slightly and those claiming nothing in particular as a third category has risen a bit more. The nothing in particular group, not claiming to be religious or atheist/agnostic is larger than the Atheist and Agnostic groups combined. Four theories to explain this are presented, one of those is “broad social disengagement”. Which is my concern. When coupled with the social media trends I pointed out, educational issues–I think there is cause for concern. Another point to go with this. Many commenters on this sight have told about their journeys into Atheism and have said it was a lonely journey. It sounds as though they wished they could have had others to talk to and share their questions along the way. I think the American Humanist association has recognized this and is now encouraging the organization of local chapters. Is that the only alternative our society can offer those that are curious and ready to leave religion? Can we make their journey easier by organizing other groups for them to join? Groups that don’t promote one particular ideology but that encourage free and open exploration of all options?
The Unitarian Universalists take that approach – the traditional church format without all the Christianity. Of course, they tip the hat to Christianity – one unstated goal is to provide a “safe haven” for Christians fed up with the rest of the churches, what with all the hate and division and primitive thinking.
The problem is that, in attempting to meet needs for a diverse group, the organization might find members of minority subgroups feeling their needs aren’t being met and they’ll move out, with the originally diverse group eventually becoming just as monochromatic/monoperspective as any Christian church. It’s a matter of economics, really.
I went to a UU church for about a year (my son wanted to go because his two best friends’ family went) but I ended up finding it tedious. Nice, nice people – don’t get me wrong – and the lady minister really tried. But when they had that one congregation member stand up at Christmastime and say, “Jesus really existed – there’s no doubt about that. They’ve found Roman records!” I was all “Oh barf” with an eye-roll. No thanks.
I think that one of the characteristics about the non-affiliated young people may well be that they don’t like organizations. They don’t want to be in a big anonymous group; they’d rather just hang out with friends. Any time you become interested in something “niche”, it is kind of lonely until you find others who share your interest. Thanks to the Internet, this is easier than ever, and so people can find others to share with and learn from and teach and enjoy much more easily than in times past. Also, since most people now live in urban areas, there are far more diverse people and groups for potential joining.
Let’s face it – Christianity could only be successful when it could force and coerce the population into joining – that was the dynamic from the Dark Ages on up into the small towns. Only urbanization changed that, and now Christianity is withering on the vine. It can’t compete without having the means of pressuring people to join whether they want to or not.
It would be interesting to know what percentage of those now calling themselves atheist or agnostic went through a “no-affilliation” stage.
I agree, this may just be part of a transitional stage before folks are ready to fully commit one way or another. YET that is the space Agnostic is supposed to fill, people that aren’t sure one way or another. Perhaps people don’t understand the meaning of agnostic?
Apparently… Because that’s not what agnostic means. An agnostic is someone who believes that whether God exists is something that is ultimately unknowable. A gnostic is someone who believes it is knowable.
An agnostic atheist does not believe there is a god, but also believes that whether there is or is not a god can’t be known for sure.
An agnostic theist believes there is a god, but doesn’t believe that whether god exists can be known with absolute certainty.
A gnostic theist knows there is a god.
A gnostic atheist knows there is not a god.
“Agnostic” does also get used to mean “I’m not sure there really is a god, but don’t want to label myself an atheist” but that’s not the term you’re “supposed” to use, insofar as you can describe words as having a right or wrong meaning.
I did! I remember at age 13 telling a Campus Life preacher-counselor that I was “agnostic.” I had just learned the word. I don’t think I even knew the word “atheist” yet.
But what most people will realize is that religious people are far more agreeable to the word “agnostic” than “atheist.” I think it’s because they think that, if someone is just “agnostic,” there’s still a chance to convert/reconvert him/her to god-belief. The atheist has openly identified as “Other” with a capital “O”, which means “The Enemy.” And that’s how Christians tend to react, in my experience.
Dear Ryan,
Are you afraid that you are being sheltered or distracted from the true implications of your new atheism by all the publicity and attention you are getting? Have you considered giving up interaction with the media and the public – perhaps travelling anonymously in order to meditate on the real meaning of believing there is no God? If you are honestly trying to understand what denying the existence of God would mean, that is something as serious as a heart attack – more so! Are you concerned that such a serious thing is being meant or taken as a media stunt?
Ryan, greetings from down under. I enjoyed your interview this morning, and had already heard about your year of trying out atheism from a christian website. I’ve been following your blog with interest.
I’m a Christian, but have no qualms about the statement that God doesn’t exist. Going by some of the conservative evangelical views of a punitive judgmental and sin-and-evil-focussed God (that I have shoved at me online from some ‘christians’), well… no, that God doesn’t exist, to me.
Whether you end up with a new and better ‘version’ or understanding of God or whatever, good on you for being willing to renew your spirit and share that with the rest of us. God approves, I’m sure. :o)
Good luck on your journey, it is not scary being an atheist. I have been one for over sixty five years. I attended church occasionally, especially when my boyfriend and I could go to the youth group together. Great reason, eh? Never internalized the teachings and dropped it after I read the Bible and decided it didn’t make sense. Never tempted to go back.
I imagine that you have learned of The Clergy Project by now. They could be a ready made support group for you. They are various stripes of clergy who have become atheist or agnostic.
The debates and lectures by Dr. Bart Erhman can be accessed on YouTube as well as many other talks by atheists. He is now Chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the Univ. Of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He has gone through his own journey from strongly committed evangelical Christian to currently an atheist. He is an expert in New Testament studies and has written many books. He has continued in an area of his expertise whilst leaving his faith behind. Perhaps you can find a a way to integrate your previous experience within an atheist framework. Or go a completely new direction. It’s up to you! I will follow your journey with interest.
I suspect he’s in that place (Which is common for ex-christians) who after this will look back and say he was an atheist, but didn’t realise it because he hadn’t yet come to terms with the change in self identity. It’s strange how a label like ‘atheist’ or ‘Christian’ is so tied up with a Christian or ex-christians self image. I have a mate that is not religious and didn’t grow up in the church, he would be an atheism, but doesn’t care/know if he’s even an atheist.
I’m very curious about the disappearance of the REPLY options after “AtheistSteve”/”quineoo1” messages just above. Any idea why — anyone?
Carrox, I think replies only go two ‘generations’ out from Sara’s original comment. You’d have to Reply to your own comment to say something after quine001.
Thank you Meg, for helping out. And to Ross Collier [above]: if I don’t tell you, I suppose you wouldn’t know, but your affirmation [also above] does mean a lot to me. My earlier impulse was to urge @AtheistSteve [also above] to stick with ‘truth’ for just a while longer before introducing ‘belief.’ I’m thinking that there are a few more layers yet, needing to be unwrapped (if I may use that metaphor). As one of my teachers would say, let’s pick them up (the concepts I mean) one-by-one, hold it up to the light (of critical examination); analyze it; then put it down, and then move on.
In the past several days I’ve been thinking actively & critically & extensively about ‘truth’ and its importance, and in particular: how we might assess that. Furthermore, what conclusions, if any, might we reach about ourselves in light of that relative importance. Then what insights, if any, does it (assessment) offer on the “God question?” To post any further, I’ll need a more convenient time, but In the meantime, I’ll just nudge @AtheistSteve, and others too, to deeper exploration and reflection.
Hi, Carrox. Having to reply to Meg to line up my response with yours, but one does what one must.
I don’t see why there should be any need for “deeper exploration and reflection” on “truth”, unless it’s to clarify that people are using “truth” instead of “belief” or “opinion.” Because if that’s the case, then people should use the proper words, right?
It’s intellectually dishonest to use a culturally strong and positive word like “truth” for something that either isn’t true or that can’t be demonstrated to be true.
I reserve “truth” for facts – “It is true that Thomas Jefferson changed his attitude on slavery from con to pro”; “It’s true that I went to the store yesterday”. Religions like Christianity have attempted to co-opt this very useful word to add a sheen of respectability and authority to their nonsense, and this is a very bad, underhanded, deceitful ploy. This should be called out in the most no-nonsense of terms wherever we find manipulative cheats doing it.
If we can validate something with objective evidence, we can call it “truth”. Let religions flounder around with their vague concepts and beliefs and find a word that fits them instead of trying to hijack everyone else’s words for their own convenience.
In other words, “Jesus is NOT ‘truth’.” “Truth” can’t be a person unless it’s Sojourner Truth, which is a proper name that does not actually mean “truth”. Christians need to stop that – it makes them look like douchebags.
Great interview! Sorry to hear some think you’re “infiltrating” hahaha as if there’s an “organized atheism” body to infiltrate!
Thank you for sharing!